Subscribe on

Enjoy this episode? Leave us a review.

All Episodes

Episode 154

The Marketing Order of Operations (MOO)

Tiny brands don't grow through loyalty. They grow through penetration. A study of 400+ brands found that growing brands increased penetration by 135%, compared to just 26% growth from purchase frequency. So where should marketers invest first?

This episode, Elena, Angela, and Rob introduce the MOO, a seven-step Marketing Order of Operations that gives marketers a clear priority sequence for building effectiveness, from defining the competitive playing field to communicating results internally. The team also covers why even small brands can't afford to ignore marketing effectiveness principles and how to balance short-term performance with long-term brand building.

This video is hosted on YouTube and requires cookie consent to display.

Topics Covered

• [01:00] Research on tiny brands debunks the loyalty-first growth myth

• [05:00] Step 1: Define your competitive playing field and category buyers

• [07:30] Step 2: Build distinctive brand assets that make your brand recognizable

• [12:30] Step 4: Choose channels for both short- and long-term growth

• [15:00] Step 5: Build a measurement system that matches your objectives

• [19:30] Step 7: Communicate results in the language of the business

Resources:

2026 Money Guy Article

Alicia Barker-Trowse, Steven Dunn, Charles Graham, Byron Sharp, Armando Maria Corsi, Tiny brands, big challenges: The limits of loyalty and the role of penetration in driving growth, Journal of Business Research, Volume 204, 2026, 115864, ISSN 0148-2963

Today's Hosts

Elena Jasper

Chief Marketing Officer

Rob DeMars

Chief Product Architect

Angela Voss

Chief Executive Officer

Transcript

Angela: I actually do think that brands should start with digital channels first. Not because that's where growth comes from, but you do need to work out the friction. Fix the plumbing if you need to before you proverbially turn on the water.

Elena: Hello and welcome to the Marketing Architects, a research-first podcast dedicated to answering your toughest marketing questions.

I'm Elena Jasper. I run the marketing team here at Marketing Architects, and I'm joined by my co-host Angela Voss, the CEO of Marketing Architects, and Rob DeMars, the Chief Product Architect at Misfits and Machines.

Rob: Hello.

Angela: Hi guys.

Elena: We're back with our thoughts on some recent marketing news, always trying to root our opinions in data, research, and what drives business results. Today we're talking about our own marketing order of operations, which we're calling the MOO. This is inspired by the Money Guys Show Financial Order of Operations, or the FOO as they call it. And we're going to break down step-by-step what brands should prioritize if they want to get their marketing effectiveness house in order. So I'm gonna—

Rob: Elena, does that make you the Chief MOO Officer?

Elena: It must. I love it. I love the MOO. It's so funny. I'm going to start with a research piece like we always do. Today I have two. One is just a quick explanation of what this episode is about, which is the Money Guys framework, the Financial Order of Operations. If you haven't heard about it, they call it the FOO, and it's the step-by-step system designed to answer a simple question, which is: what should you do with your next dollar? Simple, but it can be overwhelming. And that was inspired by the idea that math has this order of operations. So the FOO lays out a clear priority sequence from covering your basic risks and paying off high-interest debt to investing, building wealth, and optimizing later decisions.

So the power of the FOO isn't that it tells you what to do and it tells you to do everything at once, but it brings some clarity to the chaos by showing you what matters first — like what should get done first, no matter what stage of life you're in. So I was really excited about this idea. My husband is a big fan of The Money Guy Show and he has me listen to some of the episodes. But I was curious, Angela and Rob, are you familiar at all with the Money Guy Show? Have you heard of it and have you heard of the FOO?

Angela: I know of the Money Guy, but I've been more of a Dave Ramsey follower, so I needed to do a little research on it. Dave has his seven baby steps, so something similar, but they're not the same.

Rob: Yeah, I was into Dave Ramsey. I had no idea what the FOO was or the MOO, so I'm really excited to moo with the FOO.

Elena: Perfect.

Angela: You're gonna be mooing by the end of this. You are gonna be full-on MOO.

Elena: Oh gosh.

I think the concept is probably the same as the Dave Ramsey stuff. But yeah, Money Guy Show — maybe a little bit less known. But yeah, if you're familiar with Dave Ramsey and how he talks about getting your financial house in order, it's probably pretty similar. So that FOO is the inspiration for this episode, but before we get into the MOO, I had one piece of research I wanted to cover because I think when we talk about marketing effectiveness and marketing effectiveness principles, sometimes the reaction we get is, "Well, those principles are great, but they don't apply to me because I don't work at a giant brand."

And there is now research to debunk this in the form of a study from Byron Sharp, Alicia Barker, Steven Dunn, Charles Graham, and Armando Maria Corsi titled "Tiny Brands, Big Challenges: The Limits of Loyalty and the Role of Penetration in Driving Growth." They define tiny brands as brands with less than 1% market share, and they looked at more than 400 brands across five years. What they found was 69% of tiny brands actually have lower loyalty than expected, not higher, which directly challenges the idea that small brands grow by cultivating a tight, loyal niche.

When tiny brands do grow, it's almost entirely driven by penetration. Growing brands increased penetration by 135% compared to just 26% growth from purchase frequency — more than a five-times difference. And the stakes are high: 38% of tiny brands disappeared entirely over five years, while only 6% managed to hold a stable share. So the takeaway is, even the smallest brands don't grow with loyalty-first strategies. They grow by getting more buyers, just like big brands do. So Ange, was there anything about that tiny brands research that surprised you, or is this sort of what you were expecting?

Angela: This is exactly what I would've expected, I think, and what I think a lot of marketers either don't know or don't want to hear. They like this idea of growth through a niche loyalty. It sounds great, but it's just not how markets work. Most brands don't fail because customers leave. They fail because new customers never arrive. Penetration is hard work. It just is.

Rob: Seth Godin called, and he wants to arm wrestle you guys. This is pretty contrarian to the tribe mentality.

Elena: Tribe mentality. Yes.

Agreed. Because that's the big argument you see a lot when you talk about marketing effectiveness — "this doesn't apply to me because my brand isn't Coca-Cola." But I'm excited that they released that research so it can combat that. I wanted to cover that because I think when we talk through the MOO, we're doing this from a lens of marketing effectiveness. Like, if you had one marketing dollar, where should you invest it next? And I don't want people to think, "Hey, this doesn't apply to me because I don't work at a giant brand." This should be able to apply to any marketer. So we have a seven-step MOO that works from how do you go from setting up your marketing effectiveness to becoming the successful category leader.

And the first step in our Marketing Order of Operations is defining the competitive playing field. No surprise, this probably isn't going to be about narrow targeting or personas. It's about being clear on who actually buys in our category, who influences those buying decisions, and which competitors we're really up against. So if you get this first step wrong, everything else downstream can be constrained. So Ange, for step one, how do you think brands should think about defining their audience and competitive set when they're really trying to grow?

Angela: So I think the first shift is just moving away from thinking about our "ideal customer" and starting to think a lot more about the category buyers in the space. Again, growth comes from being relevant to the people who buy in the category occasionally, or inconsistently, or not yet at all. So we start by asking: who actually buys in this category, in what situations, and how often? And then who are we competing with in their head at that moment? And that might be a competitor — it might also not be a competitor. I'm gonna bring up an example in a second, because your competitors aren't just the brands on a PowerPoint slide.

They're whatever option is easiest to remember and easiest to buy when that moment shows up. I think about a brand like Snickers — where you would go, what comes to mind when I think about a sweet treat or when I'm going to have dessert? Versus they identified the opportunity to go beyond that: "Snickers satisfies. You're not you when you're hungry." This just opens up a whole plethora of category entry points and ways that we can think about the ideal customer, far beyond what a niche or hyper-targeted audience might look like.

Elena: Yeah, agreed. I love that campaign. It's a great example of going beyond just those narrow personas. I've seen more and more people talking about that. When I first started in marketing, that's sort of where you start — you always begin with a persona — and it seems like people are starting to want to stretch beyond that.

Alright, the second step of the MOO: build distinctive brand assets.

So once we know who we're trying to reach, the next step is making sure people can actually recognize your brand. Distinctive brand assets are those cues that allow buyers to quickly identify your brand and link it to your category, because before we persuade or try to perform, our brand needs to be recognizable. So Rob, how should a brand go about choosing and committing to distinctive brand assets?

Rob: Yeah, I mean, definitely audit what you already have to see what could be "smashable." Smashable is a great term that was coined by Martin Lindstrom. He authored the term "smashable branding" when looking at the Coke bottle — how you can smash a Coke bottle against the ground, but you can still recognize that it's a Coke bottle. That's a great asset. So how are you looking through the things that are important to your brand today and recognizing things you could leverage in your communication? And if you don't have any, then you invent them. Because we are in marketing — we can put on our inventive hats and do things like T-Mobile did. They chose one of the ugliest colors — magenta — for their brand.

Elena: I don't know if I agree.

Rob: God, it makes me want to throw up in my mouth every time I walk by their store. But I am a T-Mobile customer, and there is no way that I will mistake their storefront or their brand from any other competitor. That is an incredible smashable brand. I could walk by a house that's been painted magenta and I would go, "They look like T-Mobile." That's amazing. So how do you look at what you have or what you need to create? This doesn't just have to be characters or audio mnemonics — there are so many elements to play with. So how do you assess what you maybe currently have and don't even realize you have? That's very common when you're a brand. And then go — what could we leverage out there? Or get busy inventing.

Angela: It's so hard to own a color like that. God. They really did it.

Rob: They did. They absolutely owned it. And if it was a beautiful color, you wouldn't notice it. So the fact that they chose something absolutely revolting works well for them.

Angela: It's not revolting.

Elena: Yeah, I like that color personally.

Rob: You'd paint your house that color?

Elena: No, I would not. I was trying to think of other brands that have done a good job with color. And it's hard, because — I know we did this before on the podcast. We did a game where I said a color and asked you to name the brand. I don't think either of you ever got the same—

Rob: Let's do one. Yellow.

Elena: McDonald's.

Rob: Oh, I was thinking Liberty Mutual.

Elena: Did we just—

Angela: Okay. That's what we're proving the point.

Rob: We are. It is.

Angela: Yeah.

Elena: Really difficult. But yeah, I love — we go through this process with clients at Marketing Architects where we look at their distinctive brand assets. And one of my favorite parts of that is mapping the category, because you get to start to see where's the opportunity, where's the white space. And yeah, I'm guessing if you're a B2B brand like us — when we went through this exercise, we used to have a navy blue color, and that was one of the first things we're like, "Oh no, that's gotta go," because everybody is navy blue. Yeah, that's a fun exercise to go through.

Alright, the third step of the MOO: develop creative that builds memory.

Now that we have our distinctive assets, we need some creative, and it shouldn't just be about driving action — it's also about building memory. So we want to make sure that our creative consistently links our brand to buying situations in ways that are easy to process and remember, especially for those light buyers. So Rob, what are some creative best practices brands should keep in mind if they're starting from scratch but trying to build effective creative?

Rob: Okay, this one's gonna seem so obvious that I'm almost embarrassed to say it. You spend the time to create distinctive assets — then use them in your ads. And I think we oftentimes forget that as marketers because we're busy creating our campaigns. What about the colors we've been choosing? What about the fonts we've been using in all of our communication? What about our taglines? All of these amazing things we don't use in some of our most visible channels like television. So just making sure you're auditing yourself and auditing your agency to make sure you're actually leveraging the things that you've spent so much time, energy, and boardroom time to nail down. It's low-hanging fruit to help build those memory structures. And then obviously the next thing is making sure that you're creating ideas that have legs — that you're both using the assets to create memory structures, but you're also using storylines, ideas, and concepts in your message strategies that complement each other. So your television ads are in sync with your social, radio, and everything else.

Elena: Great advice. It is an active effort to make sure your distinctive assets are in all your advertising. Just speaking from our own team, we have to be really careful whenever we're creating something. And you're right, Rob — I think there is research on how long it takes for a distinctive asset to be recognized with a brand, and it's years. You need to consistently make sure that it's there and it's with your logo, and there are some guidelines to that. But you're right — a lot of brands, if you create a character and you're not willing to put it in your advertising, you probably shouldn't have it.

Rob: A hundred percent.

Elena: Alright, we are at the fourth step of the MOO, which is: choose channels for the short and the long.

This step is all about picking channels that allow our creative to reach as many category buyers as possible, often enough to build mental availability over time, while also driving the short-term impact that businesses need to thrive. So Ange, how should a brand prioritize their investments in channels that drive both the short and the long?

Angela: Yeah, I actually do think that brands should start with digital channels first. Not because that's where growth comes from, but you do need to work out the friction — just to make sure your customer journey functions, to validate that your offer works. Fix the plumbing if you need to before you proverbially turn on the water. And digital is really good at helping you diagnose those problems. It's very precise. It tells you where things break. But once you've got that journey in place and you feel confident about it, you can't stay there.

And that's, I think, often where brands get stuck — they get addicted to short-term activation because it feels really measurable and really controllable. The problem is performance channels are mostly harvesting existing demand versus expanding upon it. So after you've worked out that friction, the priority has to shift to reach-based channels that build memory and create new demand. That's what drives long-term growth. That can be TV, it can be CTV, it can be radio, it can be billboard — there are a lot of options actually. But if you don't make that shift, you end up fighting over that same small pool of buyers and your growth is gonna stall out.

Elena: I agree with you that it's probably not good advice for every new brand to just jump onto television, but I think it's also important to make sure that you're planting the seeds for what we're going to do later on. Because I think it's also hard when people within the company — like the board and the CEO — when they're used to seeing these immediate returns for marketing, or they're used to this type of measurement, it's probably hard to make a shift. I think sometimes we see that they want to hold channels accountable to the same metrics, so probably start planting seeds like, "This is what we're gonna be doing."

Angela: I also think that digital creates a bit of a doom loop in terms of target customer. Because you find that there is an ideal customer of course, right? Your ideal is women, 34 years old, with two kids, living in suburban areas. Okay, fine. But we're not gonna grow that way. But when we start to see that that works, then we're like, "Woo, that's what I want to target," versus expanding out and finding those opportunities.

Elena: So if you followed the MOO and you define the audience the way we talked about earlier, then you should be in a better spot by the time you reach the fourth step. See, the MOO is working.

Rob: Follow the MOO. I'm waiting for the t-shirt.

Elena: It's completely made up, but it is working so far. Okay, now let's move on to the fifth step: measure what matches the objective.

Your measurement has to match the goal. If the objective is long-term growth, then measurement needs to reflect that — focusing on reach and momentum rather than that short-term precision that can sometimes distort decision-making. We got into this a little bit in the fourth step of the MOO, but Ange, what does a measurement system look like for a brand that's really committed to marketing effectiveness?

Angela: I think we have to get really honest and have hard conversations about what can be measured well and what can't — what can be measured precisely and what can't. Long-term demand creation doesn't show up cleanly in last-click dashboards, which is that digital world. So for a brand committed to growth, measurement has to be layered. We talk about multiple models. You need short-term indicators — which can be conversion rates, pipeline, sales response, visits, etc. — to make sure the system is working. But you also need more market-level signals that tell you whether you're actually expanding that demand. That's reach, penetration, could be brand momentum, share of search, controlled tests that allow you to see incrementality.

And that usually means coming up with things like geo tests, looking at MMM, brand tracking, and sales analysis — instead of just pretending one tool has all the answers. We would, of course, love perfect attribution as marketers, but that's just not possible. What we're really trying to — or should be trying to — strive for is directional confidence. Do we know we're building demand? Do we know we're translating it into revenue? And do we think it is repeatable and scalable for the brand growth that we're looking for?

Elena: We talk a lot about multiple models on this show, but that feels like a really important part of your measurement system.

Angela: Yep.

Elena: Alright, so now we've got our audience in mind, our competitive set. We've got our distinctive brand assets, we have our creative, we've decided the channels we're going to invest in and how we're going to balance that over time. We've got our measurement. We're now at the sixth step of the MOO, which is: stay consistent long enough for things to work.

A lot of marketing strategies fail not because they're wrong, but because they're abandoned too early. So this sixth step of the MOO is about consistency — sticking with the same assets, the same creative approach, and the same investment long enough for memory to compound and results to show up. So Rob, why is consistency so important for growth, and why is it so hard for brands to maintain it?

Rob: You need to treat your brand assets like a face tattoo. You are making a biological contract with your customer's memory. So you can't change that just because you have a different t-shirt on today. You are committed. There's a reason why magenta is immediately coming to our minds — it's everywhere. They stuck with it. They don't change the color palette because it's Christmas or the holidays. They don't do that. McDonald's does not change the font of their M to better align with their current creative campaign.

There are things that are just non-negotiable and you have to stick with them, because you've invested in them — the cash, the dollars, the sweat, the tears. So sticking with them just allows you to benefit from the compound interest all that stuff generates. I mean, you can just talk to Ange — and you can't tell from this podcast because you're probably just listening — but she's got a face tattoo and she's really committed to it.

Angela: I know. "I Heart Rob" right across my forehead. Always have.

Elena: Yeah. Rob, you made me think of an idea — it's not a tattoo, but if your marketing team goes through a rebrand, maybe you should include as part of that some sort of structure or something that's hard to change. Like maybe that'll protect the branding in the long run.

Rob: Yeah, absolutely.

Elena: You know what I mean? Like, put together a statue, or change a big sign.

Rob: The wet cement in front of the corporate office — make sure you write the tagline in there.

Elena: Something. Yeah. Or ask your CMO to get a tattoo of it. Then you'll see how strongly they feel about that distinctive asset.

Alright. We are now at the final step of the MOO, if you can believe it, which is: communicate results.

So even if marketing is working, it can fall apart internally if results aren't explained clearly. So this step is about translating data into stories that help everybody understand what's working, why it's working, and why we need to stay the course. So Ange, what do you think good communication of marketing results looks like inside an organization?

Angela: Marketing has an incredible opportunity to lead the growth conversation for a brand. How do brands grow? That's your job. There's a level of education that's necessary to transfer to broader executive members of the organization. And I think speaking about growth is an earned right, and you earn that right by speaking the language of the business, not just the language of marketing. Fine — speak the language of marketing to your own team, but most dashboards are built for marketers, and executives don't care about impressions and CPMs.

We care about growth. We care about risk. We care about return. We do need to show data, but we need to be able to translate it into: here's what we've invested, here's what changed in the market, here's how that connects to revenue and profit share now versus five years from now based on the decisions we're looking to make, and here's why stopping would undermine the progress that we've built.

Elena: Ange, one thing that made me think of — this is sort of a random question, but I feel like when talking to successful marketing teams, I see two sides of setting up results. One side is: "This is always how we do it. We always do geo tests. This is the system. It's proven to work. This is what we do." Which can be great because you've seen it work, leadership accepts it, and it gives you a structure for adding new channels. Or on the other side, you approach each one with a clean slate — like, what could we do? And I think that can be beneficial because then you could adapt it according to the channel. But it can also be a little chaotic. And what if you don't get the results you need? Do you feel like one is better than the other, or maybe it's somewhere in the middle? Because I think the first one can be kind of restrictive at times, or maybe slow things down. Do you feel like one side's better than the other?

Angela: I do. I would change "restrictive" to "disciplined," I guess. There's a lot that we can go test. The world in terms of what consumers consume is very fragmented. So I think when we talk about multiple models, you could look at that and go, "Well, I can test this way and I can test that way." But are we losing the lens of incrementality? And I think that's the discipline that ultimately is needed to get to a place where you can make investment decisions based on both short and long. It's easy to make investment decisions based on short. They might not be the right decisions, but every dashboard is gonna give you direction on whether or not to continue to invest in it — and most of them are gonna tell you to continue. So because of the complication in terms of measurement, we need that discipline. You're right, it might potentially slow growth, but I think we're not setting ourselves up for durable growth if we don't have that discipline.

Elena: That's a good point. So maybe: be disciplined in your testing, but then when it works, don't be afraid to go big on it. Alright. Well, that's the MOO. What do we think of the MOO?

Rob: I have a question for you. How all-in are you on the MOO, Elena? Are you willing to get the MOO tattoo?

Elena: I mean—

Rob: That's the true test right there.

Elena: Oh man. I don't know. Maybe a little cow — I got a little cow tattoo.

Rob: Yes!

Elena: I wouldn't rule it out. We'll see what the reaction to this episode is. If people—

Angela: Start with a t-shirt. Rob, you can get a hat.

Rob: Alright, I like that.

Elena: A MOO hat. But I thought it was a fun idea, because sometimes you hear about all this stuff and you're like, where in the world do I even start? So hopefully this episode could be helpful if you're prioritizing — like, what do I need to look at first within my marketing? Alright, final wrap-up here, for fun — personal life order of operations. I'm sure you have that in some way. Like, what are the first few things that need to happen for you before your day actually works?

Angela: I am gonna go out on a limb and say that I'm gonna be shocked if the three of us don't have the same number one. So I want to be wrong on this, but okay. For me it's rest, perspective, priorities. If I'm rested, grounded, clear in what matters most, I can handle almost anything.

Rob: Nice. That's good. I like that. I think you're saying we're similar because all three of us go to bed at like 8:30.

Elena: Is that true?

Rob: Well, this is true. I mean, I love me some—

Angela: If sleep isn't everyone's number one on this podcast, I don't know us. But—

Rob: That is a great baseline. I think for me, I could literally do a podcast that no one on the planet would ever listen to on David Allen's "Getting Things Done." His number one concept is: your mind is for having ideas, not keeping ideas. So for me, when I'm thinking about stage one — how do I move forward — it is emptying my brain and putting it somewhere else. Putting all that stuff somewhere else in a trusted system. Like, I have to clean the kitchen before I can do anything else.

Angela: And he has a system for that. Anytime someone wants to hang out and talk about it, I'm all there. It's our favorite topic.

Elena: I feel like you've mentioned wanting to do this David Allen "Getting Things Done" episode for a long time. So listeners, if anyone wants to hear that, send me a message on LinkedIn and we'll let Rob do an episode on it.

Angela: We can't be effective marketers without having a clean kitchen, so maybe it fits somehow into the agenda of the show.

Rob: Shout out "Getting Things Done" by David Allen. Absolutely. 100% OG.

Elena: One of our most prized listeners to this podcast — David Allen. So, me — very similar. Definitely need a good night of sleep. I need to exercise before I do anything else too. Like, I exercise every morning or else I'm no fun to be around. And then another thing I was thinking of is just fueling well. I'm a big believer in breakfast. I know some people who skip breakfast — I don't know how they do it, but I feel like that helps set up your day too. Having a— what's the—

Rob: What's the go-to breakfast?

Elena: I'm very spoiled. My husband Sam makes me a quiche every week, so I get to eat quiche for breakfast.

Angela: So yummy.

Rob: What kind of quiche?

Elena: Like eggs with grain, peppers, spinach, bacon, cheese. That type of thing. Yeah.

Angela: Robert, are you a breakfast guy?

Rob: I eat a GoMacro bar every morning with my coffee, if that counts as breakfast. But it's not very substantial. And then I don't really eat until dinner. It's weird. But if I eat lunch I get very nappy.

Elena: That's the problem with lunch — coming back to work after lunch could be a little rough.