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Episode 136

Perfecting Digital Marketing Effectiveness with Kevin Goodwin

Most digital marketers treat brand building like performance marketing. They run two-day tests, allocate 0.2% of budget, or recycle performance creative for reach campaigns. It fails every time.

This week, Elena, Angela, and Rob are joined by Kevin Goodwin, SVP of Strategy and Growth at New Engen. Kevin shares how his agency evolved from pure performance marketing to embracing effectiveness principles, why digital gets unfairly dismissed by brand marketers, and the specific ways marketers sabotage their own digital brand-building efforts.

Topics Covered

• [00:04] Kevin's journey from finance to digital marketing at Zulily

• [00:08] How iOS 14 and rising interest rates forced New Engen to evolve

• [00:13] Why measurement is critical for digital brand building

• [00:16] What digital marketers get wrong about brand campaigns

• [00:20] Why marketers should challenge platforms for better brand-building tools

• [00:23] Preparing for the death of the click in an AI-driven world

Resources:

2025 Tom Roach Article

Kevin Goodwin’s LinkedIn

Kevin’s Substack

New Engen Website

Today's Hosts

Elena Jasper

Chief Marketing Officer

Rob DeMars

Chief Product Architect

Angela Voss

Chief Executive Officer

Kevin Goodwin

SVP of Strategy and Growth at New Engen

Transcript

Kevin: Everyone wants to do the right thing, but it's so hard and the capitalistic economy rewards this short term point of view. And so that is honestly one of the biggest hangups is how do you still deliver something like that, but reinforce the right behaviors and the right beliefs that aren't like, let's change everything every day.

Elena: Hello and welcome to the Marketing Architects, a research first podcast dedicated to answering your toughest marketing questions. I'm Elena Jasper. I run the marketing team here at Marketing Architects. I'm joined by my co-host Angela Voss, the CEO of Marketing Architects and Rob DeMars, the Chief Product architect of Misfit and Machines, and we're joined by Kevin Goodwin, senior Vice President of Strategy and Growth at New Engine, a digital marketing agency recently named Digiday's most innovative Agency of 2025. With a background in finance and early experience at Zulily, Kevin developed a passion for data and measurement that's guided his career ever since. At New Engine, he launched and leads a strategic consulting division where he's overseeing more than a billion dollars in ad spend and helped scale multiple brands past a hundred million dollars in revenue. His team partners with clients on full funnel strategies, measurement challenges, and he works to translate the language of performance into the language of brand. He's one of today's leading voices on digital effectiveness, and we're excited to chat with him today. So Kevin, welcome to the show.

Kevin: Thank you. Great to be here. Long time listener. First time caller. Appreciate the opportunity.

Rob: It's so good to have you here now, Kevin, you definitely have one of the deepest financial industry backgrounds of any marketer we've ever had on the podcast. And I...

Elena: A low bar, probably.

Rob: No, we're gonna get into a bunch of smart marketing talk in a minute, but first, let's talk crypto. Are we in a bubble? Is it gonna surpass 200 a coin? And when will I be able to buy a super Bowl spot with a Doge?

Kevin: That's a great question. I'm glad you asked that, Rob. I have no idea. I wish I did, otherwise I wouldn't be here talking to you guys.

Rob: All right, well, and I suppose we can't pass out any financial advice on a podcast anyways, so...

Elena: Kevin, your life is very private online. Rob had trouble finding a fun fact about you to use, so that should make you feel good that he had to go with that. Alright, we're back with our thoughts on some recent marketing news, always trying to root our opinions in data research and what drives business results. I'll kick us off as I always do with some research, and today I chose an article by Tom Roach. It's titled Brand Building and the Platforms. In the article, Roach pushes back against the idea that digital channels can't build brand. He reminds us that no brand has ever been built by advertising alone, but that advertising and increasingly digital advertising can make a meaningful contribution to long-term growth. He points out that we're at an inflection point. The major platforms, once dominant in lower funnel performance are now competing for brand budgets. The rise of digital video, whether it's YouTube, TikTok, or CTV, has made these channels more powerful for building memory and emotion. Econometric evidence shows that most digital channels now deliver both short and long-term ROI, with video in particular having a lasting impact. But of course, brand building in digital isn't without challenges. Attention is scarce and creative has to be built for the platform, not just recycled from something like a TV spot, but we're learning fast and brands are proving what's possible in both the short and the long. So Kevin, thanks again for joining. I'm really excited to have a digital expert on the pod because we are understandably biased to offline channels like TV, since that's what we do here at Marketing Architects. But I wanted to start a little bit earlier here. You studied finance as Rob teed up, but you ended up in digital marketing. How did that shift happen and what drew you into the world of marketing?

Kevin: A little sad to hear that I have the most finance experience of anyone on the pod because those years are, you know, 15 years behind me at this point. Honestly, you know, it's easy to attribute it to some fortuitous events, but it was a lot of desperation to get a job right outta school. And so I think some of it was pure accident, which I think is how a lot of these things tend to go. I think I originally got into finance 'cause I really liked math and numbers and especially applied versions of that. So I really enjoyed like the applied statistics classes I took in business school, making numbers real world and bringing them to real world scenarios. And so when I graduated, I ended up networking with someone who was working in digital marketing who just so happened to have a background in finance, previously worked in finance, and it was a conversation. I was like, I guess I will talk to this guy. I had no interest in it, and he totally sold me on it. Just like the data-driven component, the fast-paced component. I had done a number of internships in finance that quite frankly were extremely boring, old school, a little gray, and I was like, oh, is this the life ahead of me for the next 60 years of my career, 40 years of my career, however long careers are. And so he totally sold me on it. I ended up getting a job offer through that conversation, and the rest is history.

Elena: Well, like you said, maybe there's not enough marketers that have this finance background, so it was probably a good thing that set you up for what was to come. And when we talked, you mentioned that you joined Zulily and you ended up working alongside statisticians, a full data science team. How then do you think that experience shaped your approach to marketing today?

Kevin: Yeah, well, first off, I'm extremely grateful for that. Like, as I look at the marketing world and I look at other folks and experiences people have, like, I realize how abnormal that experience is. And this was in, you know, 2012, 2013, so a long time ago. And you would think these things would become more normal, but they're not. You know, I think a few takeaways I have from that. The first is like, it taught me I'm never the smartest person in the room. So it really helped curate curiosity. Like I had to ask questions because I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. You're making me feel quite dumb. But it instilled a good humility and curiosity that I've carried through my career and I think, you know, we embody at New Engine where I'm at currently. It opened my mind to what's possible with data. I think when I first came up, I was working in the email marketing world and at the time, Gmail had just rolled out their tabs functionality. So the primary tab, promotions tab, update tab was a brand new thing and it was catastrophic for email marketers. And so we did tons and tons of interesting data projects to see how we could hack that. And so we were doing lots of modeling of how do you get out of the promotions tab and into the primary tab? Like what traits of an email? None of it worked, but it was like, I got to experience all these things of what you can do with data and the stories you can tell and the insights you can glean. I feel like anything is possible and so that's partially why I just love this industry and this job is you can always find interesting insights. I think the third, just very obvious one, is it really elevated my statistical literacy. Like I by no means claim to be an expert. When the experts start talking, I get a little bit lost. But I'm proficient in a room. I know what people are referencing, I know what they're talking about. And I know the importance of good rigor there. I usually rely on a true statistician or data scientist to do that work. But I can say, Hey, this doesn't need to pass a scrutiny bar here.

Elena: It's funny that you have that background because we were founded by a statistician and I think that's something we bring up a lot is having carried through the history of the agency. And it is a unique, unfortunately, sometimes a unique point of view for marketing to be coming from. So I can see how that's been a real strength. And those smart people, or some of those smart people from Zulily then went on to found new engine. And I know you've been there for almost a decade. And when we talked, you mentioned that over time you've started to have more of an interest in marketing effectiveness and your agency, which is a digital shop, although I know you do multiple channels, has evolved from being purely performance focused to finding more of a balanced approach. Can you walk us through what that evolution has looked like?

Kevin: It's been both fast and slow at the same time. As you alluded to, we were so performance minded, born out of the boom that was meta in the mid-2000 tens and Google and digital marketing and, you know, all the D two C darlings that came outta that time. But in 2020, 2021, iOS 14 hit. And so tracking became a huge problem and interest rates started to rise. And so like free money was no longer a thing. And those were really the two effects that made us question everything, like all these strategies we'd known to be world beating. All these brands we'd known to be world beating, all the D two C darlings, all of it was challenged all of a sudden. And so I think we knew we had to evolve. We just didn't really know exactly what that was since we were so of this performance mindset of this data-driven mindset. And honestly, Elena, I love that you started with that Tom Roach article because a few of us stumbled on Tom Roach's The Wrong and the Short of it article, which is one of my all-time favorites, which led us to Les Binet and Grace Kite, which led me to go buy a hard copy of how brands grow and just started this journey into this new world. And I think because those folks in that world are so data driven, it really resonated with us. And we weren't like, this isn't marketing fluff in air quotes. It's like, this is real and it's tangible and it's meaningful and it's very different than how we've looked at things, but through a lot of the similar lenses, like very measurable, and again, very data-driven and scientific. So we started doing that. Like I think one of the first things we really got into was looking at share of search and we would do it for clients and we'd be like, oh, whoa, that's super interesting. Like, these guys are really tapering off, and you would never know that looking at just their direct channels. And just kinda like one step after another led to us going down this path. And fast forward, we've made huge investments in measurement, huge investments in strategy team, and a media planning team. And we continue to just educate ourselves and try to get better and then also try to do the same with our clients. And it's been really fun. I mean, I think I alluded to this a little bit earlier, but like this career, the opportunities to learn and just constantly get better. I think it's been one of the most fun parts of this is just to learn an entire new thing and apply it in a business context.

Angela: There's so much we can relate to there. Kevin, I love just hearing the story of the inspiring research. With us, it was the original Les Binet and Peter Field, but it just grew right. And it challenges how you think about marketing and in our situation at least we were really against brand. Like we came up, grew up in performance marketing in quote unquote DR. And just felt like brand marketing was highly unaccountable. It was wasteful. There was no way to prove it. We really argued against it. And so to hear your story and to reflect on our own journey and now to be the inspiration for our clients, I think we probably have some synergies there. Many of your clients I understand, still see performance as their base, and that's a really commonplace, I think for people to start from, especially as they're going up funnel. How do you help them move up the funnel towards brand building on the digital side?

Kevin: Well, we hated brand too. We used to audit accounts and like, oh, what a joke, what a waste of money. Why would you ever do this? I'll go build a time machine and go reprimand my past self for being so naive. But yeah, it's the problem we set out to solve right now because I think the way I view it's like most people now know, at least at a very, very high level, that they should be doing something. You know, there's enough discussion and discourse around like, Hey, you should be doing some brand building. You can't do this all with bottom funnel. But no one, especially in our cohort of very performance minded brands is willing to take that leap of faith and jump into the deep end. And so we really focus on quite literally moving them up the funnel, going from a very bottoms up approach. And so because of that, it's funny, a huge part of our focus has been not necessarily on the strategy itself, but change management, like how do you think about facilitating buy-in, getting people to understand this, approaching it from a bunch of different angles. You have stakeholders like CFOs who look at things very financially. You have stakeholders like a growth manager who's used to running hands on keys in meta, and then you have maybe a CMO or some other brand building person. And so lots of different people in the room. We have been very focused because of that on this stair step approach. So let's go in the shallow end, let's dip a toe in, let's wear some water wings, let's work our way up, and do it one thing at a time. And so in the digital world, like some of these changes are really small. As you start to think about what that looks like as you move up, one of my favorites is within meta, like this is the most boring thing in the world, but it's like a big jump for a lot of brands is changing your optimization window or your attribution window. So many people have become so obsessed with click attribution, and so they optimize to that in meta. And what meta is exceptionally good at is getting people who click ads and convert. But you pay a premium for that audience. It's a very narrow audience because a lot of people don't click ads or don't click and convert. And so we usually say, Hey, let's take that outta the equation, or let's open it up more broadly. Let's bring a different view into the table, and get a bigger audience. And so what that means is you open your reach up just a little bit, you get slightly less attributable results. But ultimately it helps you just build that comfort like, okay, we made a change. It's something we weren't comfortable with. We saw the proof. Now what? And so, you know, the goal is just to move people away from the obsession of this deterministic, highly trackable. And we found the easiest way to do that is to stair step up. You know, obviously measurement plays a really key part in this too. And so I think for anyone who's looking to go to true brand building, reach, you know, video view type stuff that we do a lot of. You really need sophisticated measurement 'cause it has to tie back to some sort of business impact and bottom line. And so if someone's not comfortable with that or doesn't have those capabilities, or we're not doing it for them, you know, it's not a non-starter, but it's a harder conversation to say, Hey, you're not gonna see this and we're gonna have no way to know how to measure this or attach it back to business performance. So yeah, we spend a ton of time with this. It's a fun exercise. It's sometimes a little slower than we want it to be, but ultimately that's what helps build the long-term buy-in that this is the right way to go.

Angela: Yeah. You know, all brands I feel are coming from a good place. Whether they grew up in performance marketing or they grew up on the TRP/GRP side of the world, they're all wanting to do right by their brand. Just coming from different angles. And measurement is such a key topic in that, to your point, last touch, et cetera, versus trying to measure something like brand equity. What are you coming across as some of the biggest challenges in the measurement space right now?

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, I think you're totally right. Everyone wants to do the right thing, but it's so hard and, you know, the markets and everything and the capitalistic economy rewards this short term point of view. And so that is honestly one of the biggest hangups is, you know, you have a generation of marketers and executives who've become so attached to the daily report of what's the channel doing? What's the tactic doing? How do we act on it today? And so we spend a lot of time thinking about how do you still deliver something like that, but reinforce the right behaviors and the right beliefs that aren't like, let's change everything every day. And so, you know, we have CFOs and CMOs who will even say like, I know it's foolish to look at marketing this way, but we have to, it's the only thing that we have. And so solving that I think is a massive opportunity, one we spend a lot of time thinking about. You hear a lot about incrementality, multipliers to manage through that. But ultimately, whoever can crack the daily view, like I think we're just so attached to that, that we'll always need something there in this space. But something that rewards long-term behaviors, I think, you know, there's a lot of opportunity there. I think on the more technical side, one of the challenges we constantly fight with is the digital platforms are always rolling out new tools, new ways of buying. And so Google just launched their AI Max in the last couple months. Before that, it was P max. Meta has ASC, they've changed their algorithm and every single one of these things delivers differently and produces different outcomes and has a different degree of incrementality. House, if you guys are familiar with them, like a very incrementality forward measurement agency or measurement solution, I should say. They have some really interesting data that shows just how different these are and like there's lagged effects and there's short term effects and they all look so different. So keeping up with that, constantly experimenting and changing your mix and your approach based on how these tools vary. I think it's really fun, but it's also a huge challenge to keep up with that change. And also consider that the platforms themselves may not always be incentivized to deliver you the outcome considering they have shareholders to answer to. So I think those are two big ones. Measuring omnichannel impact. I don't think that's unique to digital, but it's a huge problem a lot of our brands face right now. Attaching a retail sale or an Amazon sale to a Facebook impression. That's really critical work, but it's hard to do. And also sometimes data access is a challenge there. And then influencer is another one. There's so much we think we know that this is driving a lot of effect. How exactly good or bad, what kind of effect is this having? That's really hard to measure when you start talking organic. When you start talking just like clout, which is a funny word to use on a podcast about marketing effectiveness. But I think that matters. And how do you capture that in an MMM or an incrementality experiment? Like, I have no idea. But we know it's important and so we're trying ways to prove that out.

Rob: Gosh, we've been talking about our shared belief in brand kind of coming later, right? As you think about digital, digital's not usually seen as a brand building channel, at least, you know, compared to some of the other ones out there. What do you think marketers get wrong when it comes to brand building and digital?

Kevin: Rob, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this question, because digital, I think to the original article that Elena quoted, it gets a bad rap for marketing effectiveness. And as a digital native person, I'm like, this feels like I'm slighted personally almost by that. So I think it's almost become my mission to prove that wrong, whether I'm right or not. We'll see. But I really think I've thought about this a lot very recently actually, and I think the number one thing I see is that digital marketers treat brand building too much like performance marketing or they try to do all the same things that they do in a performance world for a brand world. And so what that means is a lot of hacky tests, like, oh, we're just gonna spin this up for two days, just see what happens, or we're gonna do this with 0.2% of our budget, or we're just gonna take this creative from our performance campaign and just throw it in a reach campaign and see what happens. And I love the initiative and the experimentation mindset. I do not want to bash that at all, but I think it fails to observe the differences in what you're trying to affect with brand building versus performance marketing. And I think it neglects a lot of this algorithmic component that is so heavy in dictating what happens within these platforms. And so I see teams in general relinquish too much control to the platforms. You risk wasting a ton of spend. An area we've spent a ton of time researching and testing this year is, I think meta has like 20 ish unique placements like Instagram feed, Facebook feed, reel, stories, overlay ads in video ads, and they're all so variable when it comes to quality, viewability, cost, like you name it. And if you just say like, Hey, meta, go get my desired outcome, they're gonna distribute that in probably a way that's actually not best, especially when it comes to brand building. I think it's pretty effective from a performance lens. And so marketers, digital marketers especially, are so used to that and saying, Hey, Meta's really good at optimizing the portfolio of placements. But from a brand perspective, that's not true. And sometimes it's just a cost optimization. So you get really cheap reach, but it's really low quality reach. And so I think you have to do things almost opposite of what you should in a performance world. You have to think what the algorithms are incentivized to do and think very deliberately about what you're actually trying to achieve. And then what we find is that it just dictates a much better outcome in brand building.

Rob: Continuing on that theme, what are other opportunities marketers can do when they're looking to build their brand using digital?

Kevin: I mean, I think the one is you definitely need advanced measurement. And so even if that's a simple incrementality solution, do that and make it a part of your evergreen program. I definitely come back to, you know, what are all the angles that you have a performance lens through, and then how do you need to look at those differently? I talked about optimization earlier. I think creative is a really interesting one. I think so much of what digital marketers have been taught about creative is again, somewhat opposite of what's good for brand building. And so how do you merge those two worlds, like the performance side, rewards, like insane volume, insane breadth, tons and tons of rapid experimentation, same day rotation of creative. I think that degree of change could be counterproductive on the brand side. And similarly, you're very focused on very quick wins, like a two second hook and things like that. Whereas on the brand building side, you wanna be thinking about storytelling and building emotion and making your brand memorable in a brand buying moment. And so it's just a very different lever. And thinking outside of that and avoiding some of the proxies, like a hook rate as an example that we've become so interested in on the performance side. And I think, you know, this is maybe a fool's endeavor, but continuing to challenge the platforms themselves. Every time I talk to Meta or Google, I'm like, the tools we want are better algorithmic solutions for brand building. We have great solutions on the DR side. The solutions that for upper funnel and mid funnel are not particularly good. You guys have great data. You have engineers, you have incredible ad technology. Bring stuff to market that helps us do both. We will spend more with you if you do. And I think, you know, sometimes they hear, I wouldn't say I have the largest voice in the room. But I think continuing to challenge those platforms and push for better tools that aren't just performance helps a lot.

Rob: Come on, Google. Right? Let's get it going.

Kevin: That's right. Yeah.

Rob: So when you think about, and we've been talking a lot about contrarian here, obviously with the long and the short of it, and just, you know, how can we make digital more of a brand play. What's your biggest contrarian marketing opinion?

Kevin: Hmm. Oh, well, you know, if I think back to my college days it was that I didn't, I thought marketing was dumb and I didn't want to do it again. So I have lots of things I've said in my past life about marketing that I've been wrong about. So whatever I say now is probably gonna be wrong. You know, it's funny because I spoke a little bit against this, so I'm gonna talk out of both sides of my mouth here a little bit, but I think as much as I'm a believer in statistics and the rigor that comes with that, I'm a huge proponent of a directional test and intuition. And I think the reason why is that everyone gets sometimes too caught up with like, oh, well that's not scientific. We can't do that, we can't measure that, and you do nothing instead. And I think status quo is the death knell, especially in our modern world where things are evolving so fast and the consumer preferences are changing so fast that like, just try stuff and take big swings too. You know, this is such a ridiculous parallel, but we did some marketing, you know, this probably three years ago at this point that was about, if you guys follow the NBA at all, and I think every sports league has gone this way, that the three pointer has become the hot strategy because it's a much more, you know, a high value play and the expected value is actually not bad. And so it's taken over the sport. And so we made a parallel to marketing that was like, take big swings. Even if your big swing is a 10% chance of hitting, let's say it's a, you know, 50% lift, which is a bit ludicrous, or even 30% lift, like that's still the expected value that's pretty good versus testing a different button. And so take big swings. Test directionally, trust your intuition a little bit. Still do the scientific rigor for sure. But we get a little too caught up in the nitty gritty, and I think it really can limit action, which to me is the number one correlative attribute to successful brands.

Elena: I love that, especially coming from a digital marketer. That's why I think what new engine's doing is so cool. The fact that you're knowledgeable about marketing effectiveness, because that's a marketing effectiveness principle. Taking bold moves or what is it? Peter Weinberg, John Lombarte. They call it Disney style marketing. But that's great to hear. 'Cause you're right, especially I would think in digital, people get prone to those small moves. They even do it with TV. And TV in itself is a big move. But we feel that too with the small testing mindset. So that's really interesting. Kevin, before we wrap up, anything that we're missing? Anything else you wanted to talk about when it has to do with digital or new engine or measurement? Like is there anything that you didn't think we got to cover today?

Kevin: You know, I think the only PSA I will make, which I beat this drum pretty hard, but it's just we should all be intensely preparing for the death of the click. We already should have been doing that, and now it's only becoming more and more obvious with AEO and GEO and video and all of these things that just mean you don't have to click and don't have to go to a website necessarily. Even agentic, you know, agents on a website that tell you what the page is about, like the new Google thing. I think that's a great thing because I think it's gonna force all of us to just throw that era out the window and do good measurement, incrementality based, modeling based. But I think now is a good time to start thinking about how you prepare for that. And probably it's already in your data, your organic search and things like that are falling off or your clicks are falling off, but start building the resilience to be less click obsessed and less traffic obsessed and find new proxies for growth. So I say it both as a warning and a message, but also I'm kind of excited that it's being forced upon us because I think it's for the best.

Angela: There's so much out there with AI and is it gonna do more harm or good? That's one I'm with you on. Even though it's being forced upon us, I think we're gonna end up in a better spot.

Elena: It reminds me a little bit of the death of the cookie conversation, which I think we've talked about is maybe a positive thing that marketers can't track quite the same, but this one seems a lot more sure that it's gonna happen than the cookie going away. Alright, well, let's wrap up with something a little more fun. Kevin, what is your digital obsession? Maybe an app or a platform that you really just get lost in.

Kevin: This is challenging because I've been trying to declutter my digital life, which is ironic because I work in digital marketing, but I feel like that's probably a common trope these days. So I've tried to delete Instagram. I turned off Twitter a year or two ago. Unfortunately, this is a pretty lame answer, but I'm very LinkedIn pilled. I love, I've learned so much, I truly get so much value in it. There's so many, you guys included, you guys post great content and there's so much good content. It's research. It's case studies. It's actionable stuff. And so I spend a lot of time on there. Could pull my screen, my iPhone screen report after this and maybe share some data on what that looks like. The other is Substack, where, you know, I try to spend more time there. I really like the long form nature of it. It's fun to support smart people who've done their own thing. And there's like five or seven folks that I religiously follow and really enjoy. And I think it's still digital, but feels like I'm detoxing a little bit from the short form and the dopamine hit and forces me to focus for longer periods of time. So those are my two. Maybe a cop out answer, but, you know, I've been trying to wean off the social a little bit lately.

Elena: That's and your LinkedIn content is excellent too. And yeah, LinkedIn's an interesting place for marketing effectiveness because I think that it is a pretty good spot for you to put opinions out there and they'll immediately be judged by some people who really know a lot about marketing effectiveness. So you can see that as a negative thing when Byron Sharp comments on your post and isn't happy. But it's also a good thing because he's keeping us all accountable. You gotta think about who could be coming for my opinion here. So...

Angela: Oh, it's happened, Elena, couple times.

Elena: Once or twice.

Angela: It's triggering.

Kevin: Every post I put out there, I'm like, I actually, this would be a good thing to start filtering through ChatGPT. Like what are all the ways that Byron Sharp, Dale Harrison, others could disprove your post? So you gotta be ready for it, which I like. It does keep you on your toes.

Elena: Yeah, I may or may not have already used that prompt a few times. But Ange, what about you? Do you have one?

Angela: I mean, I do, I also had LinkedIn, which I also felt was a cop out answer, so I appreciate you saying that, Kevin. I love Reddit too. Like I can go deep and spend hours in Reddit, related to business, non-related to business. And I will also say that TikTok gets a really bad rap in terms of the content that's gonna pop up there, but if you're diligent about it, I feel really strong about my ability to have turned that into a very edutainment platform for myself. Like I learn a lot on TikTok, so you just gotta use it right?

Rob: Gosh, you guys are so focused on learning. I am a huge fan of the internet movie database, IMDB, the app. I will literally open that up while I'm watching a show and it's like, I black out and I wake up and it's tomorrow. You know, there's just so many interesting bits of trivia and following the actors and director's profiles of work. I could just, I could do that all day.

Elena: That's such a Rob answer. This is coming from someone who doesn't have a Facebook, but Rob, I've never even heard of that, so thanks for the recommendation. I guess...

Angela: Gosh.

Elena: I've heard of IMDB, but not, I haven't heard, I didn't know you could go to it for trivia or stuff like that. Like I've heard of it...

Rob: It's fascinating when you go through and you read trivia about the shows and, oh, it's the best way to watch a show. So...

Elena: Okay.

Kevin: I love it. It's like, that's early internet. How do you waste an hour? I'm on IMDB.

Rob: Oh, a hundred percent. It's one of the first websites I probably consumed on a regular basis. And yeah, then they turned into an app and it's like, we are forever, you know, partners. Love it.

Elena: Mine's, Ange. I was gonna say Reddit. I found myself now I don't Google much. I'm usually asking things in ChatGPT, but when I am Googling, I typically am adding Reddit to the end of my search query. 'Cause I just find it really helpful, like having people's real experiences and I think it's a really helpful platform and you can also do a good job of filtering communities you wanna be in. And I'm a fan. Alright, well, before we officially wrap up, Kevin, could you tell us a little bit more about where people can follow you and learn more about New Engine?

Kevin: Yeah, I'm pretty loyal to just LinkedIn. So I post on LinkedIn. You can search my name Kevin Goodwin. And it's the guy with the mustache. Hopefully there are no impersonators. And I promise I won't change my avatar in the near future. I also write on Substack. It's a lot more time consuming, a lot less frequent. That's linked through my LinkedIn and then new engine. It's not probably spelled how you think it's spelled, but we have a website, N-E-W-E-N-G-I-N-E.com. We also post a lot of great content, case studies, thought leadership on LinkedIn so you can follow us there. But yeah, I really appreciate the opportunity to join you guys. This was fun. I wish I could do this every week. Like you guys are a good vibe.

Elena: Thank you Kevin. Well, thank you so much for joining us and yeah, everyone should go check out New Engine. Your agency does a great job marketing itself too, which, funny agencies aren't always great at that, but everybody should go check it out.