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Episode 188

Can Brands Outgrow Word of Mouth?

In-N-Out has a 4.03-star rating. Chick-fil-A sits at 3.36. Adjust for company size, and Chick-fil-A jumps to 4.06.

This week, Elena, Angela and Rob unpack a Journal of Marketing study on why bigger brands get tougher reviews, even when the product is just as good. The researchers credit empathy. People root for small brands. They expect big ones to deliver. Learn how to read a rating that trails a scrappier rival, why word of mouth can't be your whole growth plan and how to match your advertising proof to your size.

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Topics Covered

• [02:00] In-N-Out vs Chick-fil-A: the ratings gap

• [04:00] How personal replies close the gap

• [07:00] Reading a rating that trails a rival

• [10:00] Why word of mouth isn't a growth plan

• [13:00] Matching advertising proof to brand size

• [16:00] Penetration over passionate advocates

• [18:00] Could AI search bake in the size bias?

Resources:

2026 AMA Article

Journal of Marketing Study

Today's Hosts

Elena Jasper

Chief Marketing Officer

Rob DeMars

Chief Misfit

Angela Voss

Chief Executive Officer

Transcript

Elena: I'm Elena Jasper. I'm on the marketing team here at Marketing Architects, and I'm joined by my co-hosts, Angela Voss, the CEO of Marketing Architects, and Rob DeMars, the Chief Misfit at Misfits & Machines.

Angela: Hello .

Rob: Hello, hello, hello.

Elena: We're back with our thoughts on some recent marketing news, always trying to root our opinions in data, research, and what drives business results. And today, we're talking about word of mouth, and specifically what happens to it as a brand grows. You know, reviews, referrals, and recommendations are some of the most trusted signals a buyer can get, but research shows those signals don't treat every brand equally. I'm gonna kick us off, as I always do, with some research, and today's episode was inspired by a Journal of Marketing study from Jan Klostermann, Marieke Flaswinkel, Chris Haiduk, and Reinhold Dekker. This was featured by the AMA under the title, "Why Do Small Brands Get Better Reviews? The Hidden Bias in Word-of- Mouth." The researchers analyzed word-of-mouth data from Yelp, Amazon, X, and Instagram across thousands of companies. And before I share what they found, quick guess for both of you. Who do you think has a better overall rating, In-N-Out or Chick-fil-A?

Angela: I'd have to g- I've never been to an In-N-Out, so I gotta go Chick-fil-A.

Elena: You've never been to an In-N-Out? Oh, so good.

Rob: Swear to God, I can't make this up, I ate my first In-N-Out Burger on Saturday. And, and I, I w- I'm gonna have to go with In-N-Out because I had... I've heard of In-N- Out. They, they, they feed people at the Oscars In-N-Out Burgers. Like, it has this reputation. And when I went to this place, the line was literally, the drive-through was out the parking lot into the street, and it was an experience. And I, I w- a- and, and ironically, I, I can't eat an In-N-Out Burger here. They don't have one in Minnesota, and yet they have a Chick-fil-A. And guess how many times I've eaten at Chick-fil-A? One time. So they're equal, one and one, and one's in a different state. So I'm giving In-N-Out Burger the, the, the... They, they, clearly are doing a good job with word of mouth.

Angela: Okay. I... It's something I'm missing.

Elena: Yeah, Ange, I think if you travel, it's more in the South. Like, I've had it in Arizona. Yeah, I guess I didn't know we didn't have any in Minnesota, but they're not so much in, like, the Midwest, I don't think.

Angela: We're missing out then.

Rob: They are okay burgers in a really great environment. I mean, it was good. It, I mean, don't get me wrong, it wasn't a religious experience necessarily, but the experience of getting the burger was, was, was remarkable. But it's not like a White Castle.

Elena: I was about to say, I don't trust your review because you like White Castle, so...

Rob: True.

Elena: I don't trust your recommendation there. well, Rob, you would be right. In-N-Out sits at 4.03 stars, while the larger Chick-fil-A, sits at 3.36. So it's nearly a full star lower. however, when theresearchers adjusted for company size, Chick-fil-A's ratings jumped to 4.06. So that's just one example of a pattern that researchers saw. As company size goes up, ratings go down, even when the product is just as good. And theresearchers, they attributed this difference to empathy. People feel invested in a smaller business's success, so we're quicker to share good experiences and slower to pile on bad ones that we have.

Rob: What does that mean, though? If you're, like, adjusting for size and now it's bigger, did... What does the outcome of theresearch mean?

Elena: The two? What do you, what do you mean by that?

Rob: Well, I'm just saying if you adjust for size, then were they any better? If you're like, "Okay, hey, it was, y- you know, In-N-Out Burger was better. Yay." And then all of a sudden you adjust for size and now they're basically the same. Like, then what's the conclusion?

Elena: They're basically saying that people are harder on bigger companies, right? So people are more likely to say good things about smaller companies and less likely to say bad things about smaller companies.

Rob: So when you adjust for size, though, I guess is...

Elena: So we pretended... Yeah, I don't knowexactly how they did that. Okay.

Rob: Fair enough. Fair enough.

Elena: No, no, it's a good question. But I guess what they're saying is if In-N-Out, like, Chick-fil-A is, is much bigger, if In-N-Out was in Minnesota, like if they were in,...

Rob: Right, right. Got it.

Elena: ...more states, yeah, then it would be, they would, they would be similar.

Rob: Bottom line, bigger's harder to, to have good word of mouth on.

Elena: Right. They don't get the same kind of generosity. however, they did find a way to close some of the gap for these bigger businesses. So warm, personalized responses to reviews helped larger companies earn more positive word of mouth. Rob, I'm guessing that's because it makes it feel more like small-business-y, or one-to-one. And small brands shouldn't get comfortable, because when a company breaks consumer trust, it loses its advantage, no matter its size. So none of us are psychologists, but I'm curious what you think about how people stop rooting for a brand in the same way once it reaches a certain size. When do we feel like customers go from feeling like they're helping a business succeed to just more expecting it to deliver?

Angela: Yeah. I mean, I think I love to root for an underdog. You know, when you discover a small business you love, I think there's thesense that you're sort of a part of their success, and you wanna tell people about them, and you wanna see them win, and you're probably also willing to maybe overlook a few things along the way that might be little bumps. But I think as that business grows, therelationship changes. You stop thinking about the people behind the business and start thinking maybe just more about what you expect from that brand, and I think that's a pretty natural evolution. When you're small, people give you credit for trying, and when you're big, they just expect you to get it right. You know, what I found fascinating about this research is that the product or experience doesn't necessarily have to get worse for people's perception of the brand to change. You know, just the expectations have changed, and that's, I think, an interesting challenge for brands and for marketers. We tend to think that if we're doing everything right, then consumer sentiment should continue to improve as we grow. But I think what this research is suggesting is that the growth itself can change the way people evaluate us. It doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something wrong, but it just means maybe that you're playing by a different set of expectations.

Rob: Steve Jobs back in the '90s said, "I'd rather be a pirate than in the Navy," and even raised a pirate flag over Cupertino, and that was badass. You know? And as someone who loved Apple at that time, that was, I was just, I was all in. And I think they were such a great story for being the outsider kinda coming in, and how could you not root for that? "Think Different," right? It was such an exciting campaign, and it's such a good example because I feel differently about them now. I don't know if you guys feel differently about Apple now, but they've just , they've shifted. They've become the Navy, ironically, and you just think about them differently. They're great quality, you know? It's a great standard of hardware, but they're just not the one you root for in the same way that you did back in the day.

Elena: Yeah, I would agree with that. I was listening to a podcast this morning from Remarketer, and they were talking about the new Manus from Meta and kind of these new agents that are coming about and how, like, is Meta the right company to, like, launch and lead an agent in this space just because they're so big? People are so judgmental of them. You know, they have a kind of a lack of trust in it, and is, like, is that gonna have an effect on how people adopt them? So that feels kinda similar, too. So, Ange, at Marketing Architects, we work with mostly the big established brands. So if you were a CMO at a big company, and say your ratings are sitting below one of your smaller, scrappier competitors, how would you suggest thinking about that?

Angela: Yeah, I think, you know, the first thing is to separate what consumers say from what they're actually doing, 'cause those can be at odds with each other, I think a lot in our marketing world. I think marketers can get overly focused on metrics that feel objective because they're a number. A 4.2 versus a 3.8 feels like something you can optimize, but I think what this research is telling us is that those numbers aren't necessarily measuring the same thing, depending on size of the brand and things like that. So I just wanna understand what's under that number, what's underneath that number. Are we actually delivering a worseexperience? Are we seeing recurring complaints about something we need to fix? Or are we being held to a different standard because of our size? And that might be a legitimate problem that they need to solve if they're now in a different category, different class size with new competitors. But those are different problems, and I think they require different solutions. I also think that it's important to look at how those ratings connect to actual business performance. You know, are people continuing to choose us? Are we growing? Are we losing customers because of something we could improve? Reviews are maybe a valuable signal, but they're just a piece of a much bigger picture, and ultimately I don't wanna over-optimize for a five-star rating. We wanna understand what's driving or limiting growth.

Elena: Yeah. That reminds me of, have you ever seen, you know, it's this funny video of reviews people have left on things like national parks, like the most beautiful thing you've ever seen in your life, and people are like, "I don't know," like, "I couldn't see it. There was a cloud in the way." Like, "One star."

Rob: It's, like, so yeah, you gotta kind of peel, peel below. Like, "All right, is this legitimate?" That reminds me of when Kent Grayson came on the podcast. We were talking about brand trust, and he talked about that, like, trying to figure out, "Okay, what's actually happening?" before you come up with a solution.

Elena: Like, why did people lose trust? Or, your response to it is gonna depend on what your reality is. Well, let's walk through what this looks like as a business gets bigger, becauseearly on, word of mouth might feel like your whole marketing plan. I know that I've, I've listened to a lot of podcasts, listened to a lot of CMOs, and I've heard a lot of people who are running marketing at earlier-stage brands, and they, they kind of brag, "Our marketing strategy is word of mouth." I feel like that's something really common that you hear. But somewhere along the way, according to this research and what we know, consumers, they might stop rooting for you so much and start just expecting you to deliver. So when you're early stage, yes, your word of mouth can do a lot of heavy lifting, but Ange, what do you think is the risk of leaning on it for too long? When, when will you know it's time to start to invest in other marketing, things like, you know, paid media?

Angela: I mean, I think as a young brand, you know, between the choice of being liked or not being liked, you definitely want to be in the liked bucket to start off with. But, I think the risk is confusing having a group of passionate customers with having a scalable growth strategy. Word of mouth is powerful. It's credible, it influences those purchase decisions, it can introduce new people to your brand, but you have very little control over it. You're dependent on your customers having those conversations, who they're having those conversations with, and whether those people are even in market for what you sell, and that's a difficult thing to build a predictable growth strategy around. You know, advertising gives you the ability to be much more intentional. You can reach people who've never heard of you, you can build familiarity with your brand, you can create demand beyond the audience that you might be naturally attracting. And I think there's a misconception that you should wait until word of mouth stops before you start advertising, and I would argue the opposite. I think once you've demonstrated that people want your product, and you've got the economics to support your growth, you're ready to scale, that's when advertising can become an incredibly powerful accelerator for the business. And so, you know, I challenge the premise of this episode even a little bit. I don't think brands ever reallyoutgrow word of mouth. I think theyoutgrow the ability to rely on it as their primary growth strategy, because word of mouth helps you grow through the people you know. We wanna get to the people beyond them. Who doesn't know about us yet? That's, that's where advertising is so powerful.

Rob: When you talk to a marketer and you're like, "Hey, what do you do for marketing?" And they're like, "Oh, we just do word of mouth." I, I either feel like they're arrogant or they're lazy, you know?

Angela: Totally. Like, what's your job?

Elena: Yeah. It is funny how whenever you've... I've seen this with a number of brands, like a big... Even Elon Musk has bragged about this. I think Jeff Bezos used to brag about not having to do advertising. It's like every single time. It's like, eventually you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to do it.

Rob: Right. And then when you really peel away at that answer, you're like, "Okay, no, you are actually marketing." You just listed off four things that you do that are actually marketing activities. So...

Elena: That's true. Yeah, maybe we're not defining it correctly either. so if, you know, big brands have to work harder to get the same generosity as smaller brands, then you could say that advertising has a bigger job. But there's a creative question here too. Could advertising help a brand feel like it's worth rooting for? So, Rob, advertising has borrowed from social proof forever, things like testimonials, showing real customers, using claims like "America's favorite," or sharing founder stories. I'm curious, what have you seen be the most effective, and how do you recommend they think about what specifically they're highlighting in their ads?

Rob: Yeah. I'm a fan of matching the proof to your size. So if you're small, a founder's story just resonates so well, or talking about that heritage and really kind of leaning on that David and Goliath feels authentic because you are the smaller one. But if you're, you know, "America's favorite" at something, then lean into that. then lean into the bandwagon effect, that you wanna be a part of a movement, something that's already up and running and really adopt the standards that your audience has already given you. Why not leverage that? So I think, you know, small brands, tell your story so you can have something for people to root for. but if you're a big brand, really show me why everyone loves you, and be warm about it. I think even Chick-fil-A, they have their technique of saying, "My pleasure," you know, after every experience. That's just a great, warm way for a large company to show that they're still human and trying to do a good job. So I just think being authentic and really just having the proof be right-sized to the size of your company.

Elena: Yeah, that is a nice thing that they do. have you ever seen those videos of people who try to keep saying thank you and see how long they'll keep saying, "My pleasure"?

Rob: Those are cute too.

Elena: so this episode is, interesting because great advertising can also lead to word of mouth. So, like, the two kind of are becoming combined, and some of the best TV ads become word of mouth. People talk about them, we share them, we quote them, sometimes in good and bad ways. So, Rob, what makes a spot worth talking about? 'Cause we've had some spots that have gone viral. I mean, I know we have one customer whose spot is basically a meme, in a good way, not in a bad way. So how could brands kind of build that into their creative? Like, should they build that on purpose? And if they can, how should they go about that?

Rob: Well, I think every great advertisement offers the consumer something that's portable, right? Everyone loves to share. Everyone loves to have, like, that thing, that funny line, that character. When I was a kid, I didn't drink beer, but I still said, "Bud- wei-ser" with the frogs, right? You guys probably don't know what I'm talking about, but it was a very...

Angela: I'm with you, Rob. I'm tracking.

Rob: Thanks, Ange. But it just became a part of our story. And so I think, you know, when you're looking at your ads, and we always talk about distinctive assets, of course, how are those distinctive assets portable? Are they sticky? again, we love audio on this podcast, and jingles, they stick in your head, and you sing them down hallways, and all of that adds to the talk value of your brand. And so definitely look at how your commercials are offering that. So make something portable.

Elena: Mm-hmm. That's good advice. Ange, you mentioned earlier that if you're only focused on a word-of-mouth strategy, it's really focused on more of your heavy buyers, your loyal customers. But we know from marketing effectiveness that growth mostly comes from your light buyers. So does that change how much a brand should worry about winning back positive word of mouth, or is that maybe solving a problem that doesn't drive growth anyway?

Angela: Yeah, I think it's just in how we think about prioritizing that data. You know, to your point, Ehrenberg-Bass taught us that brands primarily grow by increasing that penetration versus getting existing customers to be more loyal, or more evangelists, more lovers of our brand. So if I'm a CMO, I just wanna be thoughtful about where I'm putting my resources. If we have negative word of mouth revealing a genuine problem with our product or our customer experience, that's something we wanna fix. Bad experience can undermine everything we're doing and investing to try to grow the brand, but I think that's a very different thing than trying to manufacture more positive word of mouth. And I think marketers can fall into the trap of spending an enormous amount of time and energy trying to turn satisfied customers into these passionate advocates when most consumers simply don't have that kind of relationship with the brands they buy. They don't need to love us. They just need to have a good experience and feel comfortable choosing us again. So I'd focus on delivering a consistently good experience and remove the things that give customers a reason to not choose us, but be careful about not confusing, you know, getting more people to say great things about us with actions and strategies that can actually grow penetration and grow the business.

Elena: I'm not sure if we haven't done an episode on brand love. I'm sure we have.

Angela: I think we did. Yeah, I think it was really early on. but it's been a while. Yeah.

Elena: Yeah. We should probably talk about that again, 'cause that's a big, that's like a whole nother topic in itself: Can someone love your brand? And how much should you focus on that? And I think the basic answer is not as muchas you think, probably. so Rob, one thing I wanted to talk about quickly to wrap us up is AI search is starting to summarize reviews. And we know, I think everyone's heard by now, that sites like Reddit are important to LLM citations, although that seems to change every day. But if ChatGPT is answering, you know, I go in there and say, "What's the best burger chain?" and it's pulling stuff like a Reddit thread, do you think that this size bias could get just naturally baked into AI recommendations?

Rob: It's confusing. You know, people talk about Reddit a lot, and both Google and OpenAI actually pay to train on Reddit. And so I think Reddit becomes a bit outsized in the voice that they have, and that's an opportunity for smaller brands because they are the ones that are connecting with the Reddit people who are passionate. They go to Redd it, they write about it. so that's a big opportunity. On the flip side, if you're huge, you know, these models are search-everywhere engines, and so you're in more places and can be found in more places. So at the end of the day, I think we're all still trying to figure it out, figuring out how to show up well with these LLMs. But you should be auditing them. You should be auditing all the models, you know, making sure that the content that is out there reflects your brand. and how can you put more stuff out there in the right way to be found?

Elena: Yeah. Yeah, I think one theme of this episode is just how much you can try to control things like word of mouth. And I think Reddit's a great example of that because I know it's very difficult for businesses to go on Reddit and try to influence what's there. Like, Reddit is full of passionate people, and they have moderators. Like, they are not fans of you going in and trying to fluff up your brand. So you'd be better off having a good experience so that people on Reddit don't hate you versus trying to, like, go combat Reddit reviewers. .

Rob: For sure.

Elena: Yeah, it's a scary place probably for a brand to be on Reddit. okay, to wrap us up here with something fun, what is a small business or maybe an up-and- coming brand that you're personally rooting for right now? And Ange, maybe you can get us started.

Angela: Sure, yeah. I'm kicking us off then with Sundays for Dogs. I think if you're a dog owner... Like, are you guys a fresh food? You both have dogs. Do you use fresh food? You do. No, you don't.

Okay, yeah. No, neither. I love Wilson. Yes. Okay, so this is why I love Sundays for Dogs.

Rob: I don't eat fresh food.

Angela: That's true. But some people literally, like, they've got their dogs eating better than themselves, which I... Like, more props to you, but the fresh food path and taking space in the fridge is, like, I'm out. But so it's started by a veterinarian and her husband, who wanted to create a better dog food experience and came up with air-dried food that combines the appeal of that fresh food with the convenience of the little kibble nuggets. So I'm into it, you know.

Elena: Yeah. You get the healthier food, you don't have, like, the slop in your fridge, and yeah. I love my dog too, but no, I'm also not...

Rob: Not gonna happen. Not gonna...

Angela: And, like, my dog eats good food. Like, this is ex... it's expensive, but...

Elena: It's high quality.

Angela: but it's worth it. It's worth it. Yep.

Rob: All right. I'm gonna go full circle, and you might argue they're not an underdog, but they're an underdog to me, and I'm going with In-N-Out. Having been there now. But hear me out for a second, 'cause ... So my son's girlfriend is from Utah, and they have In-N-Out Burger. So as we're going through this drive-through, she is just telling me all about this company, and she's ordering like she's speaking another, like, Klingon or something. Like, "I'll have the pepper da-da-ba-da-da-ba-da-da-ba- da-ba ." It's like they have this whole other language at In-N-Out Burger. And then she's like, "Oh, they're privately owned." I'm like, "They're privately owned?" "Yes, they're, you know, they're privately owned. They refuse to franchise. they will only open locations where their distribution of fresh beef can go." I'm like... She's telling me all these things. I'm like, "Where have you been all my life, In-N-Out Burger?" So I'm in on that, and I want one in Minnesota.

Angela: Yeah, I do too. I feel like I'm missing out on something I didn't even know about.

Elena: Yeah, I'm surprised they're not in Minnesota yet, to be honest.

Angela: Are we sure? Should we double-check? There's an In-N-Out owner somewhere that's like, "Come on, it's here down in Roseville," or...

Rob: I feel like I know my fast food pretty well. but no, I don't believe they're in Minnesota.

Angela: Okay.

Rob: I don't even know if they're on the East Coast.

Elena: No, I don't think they're in Minnesota.

Angela: you're right, though. It says each restaurant must be within a 500-mile radius of a distribution or grinding facility.

Rob: Is that appetizing?

Elena: know.

Angela: Distribution would've been fine. They didn't have to go to grinding.

Rob: "Cows ground fresh daily."

Elena: That's so disgusting. Poor cows. Geez. ...

Angela: Helberger's like, "Can I get off..."

Rob: Well, they...

Angela: ...talking about us. This started off well...

Rob: ... but it's not like they bring the cows to a massage parlor, you know? They, they have to become hamburger somehow.

Elena: We're, we're like bringing down their word-of-mouth scores right now. ...

Rob: ...and awful.

Elena: ...at all.

Rob: No, it's delicious.

Angela: ...us, Elena. Save them. Save In-N-Out.

Elena: I was gonna go hyper local, actually. There's a, there's a breakfast place near where I live called Maggie's. It's been around forever. It's like a family-owned business. And, recently Gordon Ramsay came to Maggie's because they're gonna be on *Kitchen Nightmares*. And when you hear that, you think like, "What's wrong with this business?" But it's a great, like, great restaurant. so tune into *Kitchen Nightmares*. I believe it'll be coming out in January if you wanna see a Minnesota breakfast place that I frequent, that I just love. But I felt a lot of, like, protection over them when I found out that they, that Gordon Ramsay was there, you know, yelling at them or whatever he does in that, that episode, 'cause they're a...

Rob: You'll have to tell me if he, if they actually improve it, then...

Elena: They said they're going to adjust their menu a bit based on what he said.

Rob: Yeah. Did they renovate it, too?

Elena: No, it looks the same.

Rob: Yeah, 'cause I watch that show and, and, and then I always look up therestaurant after, and nine times out of 10 they're closed.

Elena: They better not, better not happen to Maggie's. I'm gonna keep them in business. All right. They have really good breakfast food, so I will single-handedly keep them in business. But yeah. All right, great. Well, I think that wraps us up.