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Episode 174

What The Industry Gets Right and Wrong About Effectiveness

Cannes debuted a new award for creative consistency this year. 73 brands entered. Just two won.

This week, Elena, Angela, Rob, Catherine, and Nikki unpack what actually happened at Cannes versus what just made headlines. The team shares why intelligence-gathering, not glamour, is the real reason to attend, and how AI is quietly reshaping ad tech products behind the scenes. They also weigh in on where live sports, retail media, and creator marketing genuinely fit into an effectiveness-driven strategy versus where they're overhyped. Marketers will walk away knowing which Cannes trends deserve real budget attention and which are just award-show noise.

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Topics Covered

• [02:00] Why Marketing Architects decided to start attending Cannes

• [04:00] The real gap between Cannes glamour and the actual work

• [13:00] How AI is quietly reshaping ad tech products

• [14:00] Live sports as a growth opportunity, not a silver bullet

• [17:00] Why competing streaming platforms are all facing the same challenges

• [21:00] Retail media and creator marketing: tools, not full strategies

• [24:00] Cannes' new award for long-term creative consistency

Resources:

2026 The Drum Article

Today's Hosts

Elena Jasper

CMO

Rob DeMars

Chief Product Architect

Angela Voss

Chief Executive Officer

Catherine Walstad

Chief Media Officer

Nikki Erkkila

VP Media Partnerships

Transcript

Elena: I'm Elena Jasper. I'm on the marketing team here at Marketing Architects, and I'm joined by my co-hosts, Angela Voss, the CEO of Marketing Architects, and Rob DeMars, the chief product architect at Misfits & Machines.

Angela: Hello.

Rob: Hello.

Elena: Hello, and we're joined by two guests from Marketing Architects today, Catherine Walstad, our chief media officer, and Nikki Urquhart, our VP of media partnerships.

Catherine: Hello?

Nikki: Hello. Thanks for having us.

Elena: Thanks for joining us. We are back with our thoughts on some recent marketing news, always trying to root our opinions in data, research, and what drives business results. And today we're talking about what the marketing industry is currently getting right and wrong about effectiveness, all through the lens of Cannes, the largest marketing show there is, where Catherine and Nikki went recently to represent Marketing Architects this year. So they're here to help us break down what was happening at that show. But I'm gonna kick us off, as I always do, with some research.

I picked something from Andrew Tindall. He wrote this for The Drum, and he was recapping a conversation at Cannes that I was the most excited for and most sad that I missed, which was a conversation between Mark Ritson and Byron Sharp. And in his piece, Andrew argues that they agreed on more than expected when they spoke together.

They agreed that mental availability matters, distinctive brand assets are essential, broad reach beats niche thinking, brand purpose is often overvalued, and consistency is underestimated. But he also pointed out some gaps in their thinking. Ritson leaves more room for differentiation, positioning, and targeted activation, while Sharp leans harder into distinctiveness, reach, and purchase availability.

They didn't agree on everything, and I think we probably would be disappointed if they did. And I wanted to use that article to tee us up, because I think we've all been sort of bombarded with Cannes news and opinions and podcasts in the past few weeks. I think it's helpful to sort through what we believe is valuable and true to marketing effectiveness versus what seems to be more sort of award show hype and trends.

So I think a good place to start might be with our decision as an agency to start attending Cannes. We haven't always, and I think a lot of listeners have heard a lot about the show, and they may be wondering, is it potentially worth it for them, for our American listeners, to travel overseas for an event like this? So Ang, why as an agency did we make the decision to start attending Cannes?

Angela: Cannes has a reputation, I think more as a creative festival, awards and campaigns and like these big agency moments. But it was enlightening to me that it's a fraction of what actually happens there. And we went for the first time because we wanted direct access to where the technology and the media landscape were kind of being built.

These conversations happening on those beaches and inside those side rooms between platforms, data companies, between the people that are kinda architecting what TV and streaming look like in the future, we wanted to be in that room. Cannes really compresses a year's worth of relationship building and kinda industry signal into a very, very full packed, super hot five days, right?

And I think for any agency that's serious about staying ahead of where media's going, rather than just reacting to it, there's a case to be there, I think for that reason alone. I think the creative side is worth paying attention to as well, and we learned from that as well, but that was never the primary reason that we went.

Elena: Yeah, which is funny 'cause when I think of Cannes, I think of much more of the creative side of things. But you're right, Ange, we waited quite a while. We've been around for 30 years, and we only went in the last three years. But we've gone again and again. So Catherine, Nikki, I'm curious, what has been, in your experience, the biggest gap between what people imagine, maybe what our agency imagined Cannes would be like, and then the show that you actually experienced there?

Catherine: Yeah, I mean, I think the glamour is real, right? It's a beautiful setting. You know, you're on the shores of the Mediterranean. It's hot. You get a tan, a beautiful tan, right? But that is so not the point. Our reality is 25-plus meetings, walking five-plus miles a day up and down the Croisette in 90-plus degree heat. And most of our time is in back-to-back meetings and in beach cabanas having really focused business conversations with senior decision makers.

The real value is the access that you simply cannot replicate over Zoom. We see more decision makers in five days than we see in six months. And so the real value is that compression, the density, of relationship strategy discussions, the product roadmaps we get to hear about, the industry signals. All of that happens in one place over five days, and it just can't be done anywhere else.

Nikki: Yeah, agreed. Cannes is really a place for us to collaborate at that midpoint of the year and start talking about, okay, what are we looking to accomplish by the end of 2026?

And start even forecasting for next year. And it's really where every platform and publisher, ad tech company puts its biggest news of the year on the table. There was a lot of news and press and things even breaking while we were there. We had a lot of great conversation real time. And so if you don't really walk into the event with a list of people who you wanna see and a strict agenda and a real strategy, you can get really overwhelmed really quick.

So yeah, it's a great chance to just get everything compressed into five days.

Elena: Nikki, you mentioned all the planning that goes into something like this to make it worth it to go over there. I know you mentioned having face-to-face meetings with decision-makers, but what does a really productive Cannes look like for you, where you come back and you're like, "All right. We've succeeded. We're gonna go again next year"?

Catherine: Yeah, I think for me it is about a few things, and I think Nikki would probably echo this. We're looking to deepen the relationships that we have with existing partners. That's an obvious one, right? That's the low-hanging fruit. But we're looking to get in front of people that we've been trying to reach. Another big thing is also understanding where the industry is headed, and I'm talking about the real story behind the press release. I mean, we all see these press releases that come out either before, during, after Cannes.

We get to hear like what's really happening behind the scenes. I think this year was probably the best version of all three of those things, where our partners were genuinely excited to see us and we were excited to see them. They are doing active advocating for us internally with their businesses and the people on their teams, and they're inviting us to be at the table for some really strategic high-level conversations and crediting us publicly.

So it's exciting, I think, to just see how our relationships have evolved over the years and really leveled up.

Nikki: I think that we did a really nice job of balancing, you know, our meetings and our lunches and our networking opportunities to really sharpen where media is headed, and also that relationship piece of it, because that's just so important. You know, we have our day-to-day contacts, and they're advocating for us, but also to get in front of these kind of broader teams and bigger decision-makers, and just to echo those relationships that we have back every single day, and just to be able to then come back and see some of these things come to fruition.

But honestly, some of the best things that happen are those informal conversations. And like Catherine said, you're making new friends wherever you're going. So those are the best touchpoints that we have.

Elena: Yeah, so it seems like relationship building is really something key if you're gonna go to Cannes. Like, that should be something that is important to you or your business. I haven't been to Cannes, but I know content and learning is also really big for people that are going, and it sounds like there are big main stage conversations happening. Where did you feel the most exciting conversations were happening this year? Did you think it was the awards, the big presentations, or was it in more of these side activations, the yachts, the beaches? Where did you feel like the most exciting stuff was happening?

Catherine: 100% side activations, hands down, without question. I don't know how people find the time, honestly, to go to the main stage stuff. These side conversations that we're having on the beach, on the boats, in the suites, that's where the real business is happening.

You can watch that main stage content later. And not to belittle it — that's just not what we're there for. We're there to have those conversations. The main stage is obviously gonna tell you what's happening in the industry and what's getting talked about, but the cabanas, the suites, the yachts, that is where you get, again, what's happening behind the scenes and where are things actually going at the moment — it's not just conjecture. It's like, what's actually happening? How are things getting activated? How are people executing in real life?

Nikki: I totally agree with that. You know, there's so much content and all of the different groups do such a beautiful job of picking out different topics for every single day. And there is something going on on the main stages of all of these different cabanas all the way down the beach.

So there's a topic for everyone. Where you're really gonna get that needle mover is spending time with your day-to-day contacts and with each individual group that you're there to see. So it's great that they have them, but that's not primarily why we're there.

Elena: One thing I wanted to do in this episode is look at what everybody was saying about the show, and I wanna see what felt real to you two versus what maybe is just headlines after the show. And one thing that I kept coming across was this big news about OpenAI having a big presence this year, but WPP did not at the same level. Did you feel that there was a difference this year in the presence of some of the sponsors and the focus of the industry? Like, did those tech companies like OpenAI — did it feel like there was a movement towards more of that, or do you think that was a little bit of an overblown headline?

Catherine: What struck me wasn't who had beach real estate and who didn't. It was about how AI, for instance, was showing up in conversations. We've got a handful of players that are really leaning hard into AI, and they're not talking about it on stages or panels.

They are quietly embedding it into their products, and being there and having those conversations allows us to understand how they're actually doing that. Last year, everyone was asking whether AI is gonna change advertising, and it's like, yeah, duh, of course it is. This year, everyone's starting to feel the impact of how it's changing advertising, and the conversation is really shifting away from whether to use AI or how it might change things to how can we operationalize this and get it embedded into what we do every day? It's really starting to become a capability gap that organizations are having to actively manage.

Elena: So there's kind of like the headlines of OpenAI, but really in reality, every company is just sort of dealing internally with how are we gonna implement AI, and that was probably felt a little bit more. One other headline was all about sports, like athletes that were there, different celebrities with sports sponsorships. Sport Beach supposedly is getting bigger. Nikki, I was curious from your point of view, does it feel like sports are really where all these budgets are going, or how should a marketer that is interested in effectiveness think about the opportunity that is live sports?

Nikki: Yeah, great question. And you're right, sports were impossible to ignore at Cannes this year. I know there's a lot of sports fans on this call and on this podcast. Oh my gosh —

Elena: Minus Rob.

Nikki: Minus Rob. I mean, Catherine's a sports ball enthusiast, you know. Elena, Ang, you guys would love Sport Beach. This is like the mecca of all sports. We could have stayed there all day. Now, would that be a good use of time? Maybe. Maybe. But probably not. But they had the most incredible athletes this year. It was like Sue Bird, Diana Taurasi, Noah Lyles, Shaquille O'Neal. Like, the rotation...

Rob: I've heard of that one.

Nikki: Yeah. Yep, okay, Rob. Good. Good.

Catherine: Because he's in a ton of DR commercials now.

Nikki: And you can't miss him — he's seven feet tall. But yes, every single year, Sport Beach gets bigger and bigger. And the aside from that, the conversations around sports partnerships, it's really, really clear that the industry sees live sports as a major growth opportunity. But I don't think the takeaway is that every single marketer should be shifting all of their budget into sports.

The real takeaway is that marketers are chasing scarce attention, right? Live sports are one of the places where millions of people are still watching, they are still tuning in, and it's live. I mean, look at the World Cup right now. It's huge. Everybody's tuning in every single night, no matter what the team is, and they wanna see what's going on.

It's exciting, it's in your living room, and you wanna tune in. So from an effectiveness standpoint, I think sports are super effective, but they're not the end-all be-all, right? There's so many video environments that help tell incredible stories for broad reach brands. And I think the bottom line is that the fundamentals are still gonna win. Reach, attention, distinctive creative, and consistency over time — those are gonna win out.

Elena: Yeah, I think sometimes we maybe get a little overexcited about live sports, 'cause it is a big opportunity and it's fun. I wonder too if the World Cup, like you were saying — that timing at our own Cannes made everyone excited. I will say, I think American football is a lot more advertising optimized. I've watched some World Cup games, they never go to a commercial break. But football — it's like we have a schedule, this is when you're seeing your ads. So I don't know. I'm excited for football season, just American football to start as well.

But speaking of TV — so CTV or streaming TV, whichever one you wanna use, it's a space that we're dominant in as a TV agency, and it seemed like it was a hot topic again at Cannes this year. It seems like it's been the last couple years in the headlines. Did it feel like a big topic? And what felt like fact versus fiction when you were there?

Catherine: Yeah, CTV and programmatic were everywhere. I think that's something that's been consistent every time we've gone. What I loved — these platforms were taking public shots at each other, plastered across billboards across the Palais, and it was just kind of fun to see that. But the fact of the matter is we all have access to the same data, the same technology, and the same inventory, and what separates these platforms from each other is what they're doing with it.

I think winning is gonna require a unique, measurable, and defensible approach, and the fiction that I experienced is that everybody's got it all figured out — and that's why these billboards are so funny. It's like they act like they have got it all sorted out. But everyone is really just still trying to differentiate themselves and separate themselves in a very, very crowded market. And I think, you know, obviously for years the debate has been whether streaming is gonna replace TV, and that debate is over.

It's done, and the question now is becoming how intelligently and uniquely can all these players activate, and what makes them special. And so I think these billboards that I saw were an attempt to, in a big and splashy way, differentiate themselves when really behind the scenes they're all kind of struggling with the same stuff.

Nikki: Yeah. It was really interesting to see that different approach. A few of these billboards were some of the first things that we saw, and we were like, "Ooh, this is a different little take here." But yeah, I think you said it really well.

Nobody has it completely figured out. It's just a matter of how can we use technology and AI to improve execution on campaigns and just enhance what we're bringing into market across the board. These are things that every single agency, every single marketer is striving to continue to get better and improve and solve. But nobody has the magic bullet on that.

Rob: Nothing like a bunch of marketing nerds throwing shade at each other, right? It's like watching a chess club team break out in a fight.

Elena: Oh my gosh. I was gonna say TV is a funny channel because I think it does bring forward a lot of vendors — because marketers' big complaints are it's hard to measure. Can I make it work? It's a difficult channel, so you get a lot of companies saying, "Of course it works. Of course we can measure it. We have the answer," because that's a pain point for a lot of marketers. But then you get under the hood and you actually talk to people, and it's typically a different story.

Catherine: I'm still waiting for the Anchorman reenactment fight scene when all the news crews come together. I'm gonna have the trident.

Nikki: Yes.

Elena: We'll be the tridents? Okay, perfect. Um, two other categories I wanted to cover were retail media and creators, because that seemed like those got expanded categories this year. There was more attention on them. Ange, I know these are two very different things, but where do you think these fit within a marketing plan? They're both very popular, but if we're following effectiveness principles, where might they fit versus where might they be a little bit overrated?

Angela: I'll touch on retail media first. I think it's a little more of a simple case than maybe the creator marketing. But what retail media does well is close that attribution loop, connecting spend to purchase in a way that's just hard to argue with. But when we look at where most of those dollars are going, they're hitting people who were already planning to buy. So you're harvesting demand that some brand investment already created. The effectiveness researchers call that harvesting versus growing or seeding or planting, whatever the analogy works.

And that mix matters a lot. I think the risk I see is marketers shifting budget into retail media because the attribution story is, quote unquote, "clean," and kinda calling that a growth strategy, similar to how we've talked about digital and digital channels harvesting that demand. And you've got the data there that connects an impression to a sale in theory, but is it truly incremental or would it have happened anyway?

Creator marketing is a little more of a hybrid. A creator with a deeply trusted audience can genuinely move brand perception in a way that functions more like upper funnel work. We can probably think of those examples in our lives, whether they're podcasters or someone on social media where you're like, "This is building a brand for me. It's not just a conversion play." And I think that's what makes it interesting from an effectiveness standpoint. But most of the money being spent there is still being evaluated on short-term metrics, either clicks or conversions or sales lift, which pushes creators towards those bottom funnel behaviors, even when they're maybe capable of more.

So both of the strategies, I think, kinda get pitched mostly as precision plays that reduce waste, and that pitch gets used to justify possibly pulling money away from broad reach brand building, and I think that's where the system can break. These channels work best when there's already demand to capture, and demand comes from brand building. Maybe use retail media and creator marketing to convert and close, and use that brand investment to create the people worth targeting in the first place.

Elena: Yeah, so they're sort of an addition to the sometimes the short side of things, but not a replacement for your upper funnel broad reach marketing. Speaking of upper funnel marketing, Rob, hello.

Rob: Hello.

Elena: Good morning. So Cannes did something this year that I think some of the marketing effectiveness people were kind of excited about. They added a Creative Brand Lion to reward brands with years of consistent creative campaigns, not one-offs, which seems like a good thing to me. But looking at the work that won and was celebrated, did you feel like that reflected this shift towards effectiveness and towards consistency, or do you think that award is maybe a little bit ahead of where we're actually at?

Rob: Yeah. First off, I feel compelled to say that I'm gonna represent the uncultured Americans out there, my people. So I'm gonna be calling it Cannes from now on, if that's okay with you guys. I think, to your point Elena, first it was a new award, so rewarding systems, cultures, capabilities that make something world-class and repeatable years over years.

We all talk about it, we all talk about how important it is, but clearly we're not doing it. And I think the award show itself actually answered your question. There were only 73 entries, right? So for a massive award show, it's not like it got a bunch of marketers going, "We even wanna flex in this space."

And of those entries, they only chose two, right? So out of all 73, only two were even acknowledged, and they didn't even bother to do the gold, silver, or bronze for this category. So clearly this is new. Clearly it's something that will probably grow over the years. But the ones that did win — Anheuser-Busch, they're amazing. I think we'll all agree that they've built a legacy in terms of brand management, and they're studied, they execute well, so they deserve it. And Mastercard, which quite honestly kinda surprised me more off the cuff. I get Anheuser-Busch. Mastercard does a great job too. I just, like, okay, those are the two.

So clearly there's a say-do gap, right? 90% of campaigns just continue to get abandoned before they even wear in. So we have a long way to go, but cool for Cannes to be thinking ahead and recognizing where the ball is going.

Elena: Well, hopefully that — it is funny that they didn't have that many entries compared to other categories, but it kinda makes sense. Like, it's a big problem. It's probably not enough to enter a category like that. But yeah, Mastercard is a little surprising as well, I agree. Well hopefully it becomes more of a trend going forward.

And speaking of trends, thought it could be fun if we all shared what's one Cannes trend this year that we noticed that we think is worth it — that brands should act on — and what's one to ignore? And we'll have Catherine and Nikki get us started.

Catherine: Okay, so first off, I want these platforms to take things to the next level and go from the billboard to the streets and have the Anchorman fight. Let's do it to each other's faces — let's not just plop it up on a billboard and walk away. I kid. I think some trends that brands should act on are definitely around identity and measurement.

Those things have continued to be hot topics, but also just really things that we all struggle with. I think just continuing to try to figure those things out, getting better data, doing better measurement, having systems of measurement, not just a singular method. I think every major announcement that we saw while we were there and every discussion that we had really reinforced that direction.

So I think having better data, better identity, better measurement is just gonna help us all make every marketing dollar work harder. And the future of TV is really gonna be about being able to buy premium video with better data, better identity, better measurement, and just continuing to prove out its value. 'Cause we know all media has value. We know CTV has value. It's a matter of proving that out. As far as what to ignore, I would say there is no silver bullet. AI isn't a strategy. Retail media isn't a strategy.

Live sports isn't a strategy. Those are all tools that we can use to do better marketing or more diverse marketing. So strategy is gonna be really more about reaching the right people with memorable creative that creates space in people's minds when they need to go purchase something, and that we're doing it consistently over time.

Nikki: One thing that we did hear across the board, and this is no surprise, is that authentic partnerships are going to always win out. Like I mentioned earlier, Catherine and I went to a panel on women in leadership and different folks within the industry. One of the speakers there was saying, if you aren't promoting or coming to the table with something that you believe in, people will sniff that out right away.

And it's just the same as when you're working with folks — if things aren't authentic, people are going to feel that. So whether brands are building long-term partnerships, you have to be with folks and agencies and creators and publishers and technology partners that are rooted in trust, shared ambition, and not just a transactional partnership.

So that part is always going to be just steadfast, and I think that was something that we just heard over and over and over at Cannes. One trend to ignore — I think that AI is obviously something that is transforming the way that everybody is working, but the notion that it can replace creativity, I think that we can somewhat ignore that, right? Brands and us as an agency absolutely need to embrace it, but creativity still starts with human insight, and the future isn't AI versus people — it's people using AI to make great ideas even more powerful. So we need to all embrace that.

Angela: One I think we touched on — I won't give away any of our media secrets since I said that's why we show up. But I'll talk about creative consistency. It was really the through line of everything that won this year — the Creative Brand Lion, the Grand Prix work, the effectiveness conversations. Brands with long-running creative systems outperform brands with these clever one-off campaigns, and that's been true in the research for years and years. And I think Cannes 26 finally reflected that in the awards.

From an ignore standpoint, I think it's just important to remember that the festival itself is a proxy for industry direction. Cannes is a useful signal, but it's also a highly curated, heavily sponsored, rosé-soaked version of what marketing actually is, and so the trends that matter, I think, show up in the data before they show up on the Croisette. Maybe use Cannes to pressure test what you already believe, not to set the strategy. There's a lot of things going on there.

Rob: I think one thing for me that's interesting, and it didn't come up in this conversation, so I wanna call it out. We talk about AI a lot in terms of a technology that is being used by marketers, but we don't talk about it as a channel. And the fact that OpenAI bought a beach was not because they're promoting the use of AI in technology. They're promoting themselves as a channel, and I think that's something that we've gotta continue to keep our eyes on. What is that gonna look like? How are the players in this space gonna take on different posturing? Obviously, Gemini and OpenAI are gonna be very ad-based most likely, and Claude is taking a strong stance that they won't be. So that's gonna be really interesting.

The thing to ignore would be me, 'cause I've never been to Cannes, and so I really don't have a reason to pop off on it.

Elena: Great. Thanks, Rob, for that. Okay, so quick one — this might just be my algorithm, but it seemed like the Mark Ritson and Byron Sharp debate got some great attention, at least online, which made me excited. Is marketing effectiveness becoming more popular? And having those two go up and debate — I think anytime they go and speak together, it's just great for the marketing effectiveness movement, so I loved that.

One thing I saw a lot of articles about was community and having a relationship with brands and consumers, and I think community is a really interesting part of marketing, especially with the rise of things like real Reddit communities. But I encourage marketers not to get too wrapped up in that when there's a lot of other pieces of marketing that matter a whole lot.

So that was one that I noticed. But I wanted to do a kind of a fun wrap-up here. This was a big trip going from Minnesota to France. Do we have any quick travel hacks to share? And Catherine, I'll let you kick us off.

Catherine: Okay, listen, I feel like I should win an award for the hack that I came up with for us this year — which is really not a hack — but I found these amazing little handheld, portable, chargeable fans that we lived and died by. If we didn't have that with us, if we didn't have it at the tables we were sitting at with other people — like, people were coveting our fans. Now, everyone was giving away fans, but they were garbage in comparison to the one we found on Amazon.

The other is, don't be afraid to take the swag bag, because you can always go down the street and buy a $25 roller as a second bag to go home with, to bring all the little things that my mom wants to put in her basement with all of the other things that she's hoarded and she'll never use again, but gets really excited about. So just get the extra bag.

Nikki: Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, every day there this time was between 92 and 97 degrees, so the fans saved us. Also you have to grab a water everywhere you go. So water, rosé — that is the proper order. And I would say also never, as a woman on this trip, pack anything more than a flat.

You will never wear a high heel. Never. Ever. And as a taller person, I don't understand why I would ever pack anything other than a sandal or a flat, because you are walking five to seven miles in 90-degree heat. So those would be our travel hacks.

Angela: I have not been to Cannes, so I'm not giving Cannes travel hacks. I'm giving just normal travel hacks for those of us that don't get the privilege to wander overseas for five to seven days. My travel hack is kind of more of a vacation hack, I would say, which is that especially for the parents out there, maybe give yourself one day to sleep in.

You know, you go on vacation, you're like, "Oh, I can't wait. I'm gonna sleep in." But get up early, like when it's really quiet, before the kids are going crazy, 'cause they wake up hot and ready to go. They're like, "I wanna swim. I'm hungry." And you're just launched into chaos. And it's okay if you need to take a little nap, but get up early and have your own time — very quiet, watching the sunrise, sitting at the pool, whatever fills your cup up, just do it.

Rob: Love this question so much. This is my favorite fun wrap-up question that Elena's ever done, 'cause I would literally have a podcast on travel hacks. No one would listen to it, but I love this so much 'cause I'm an old guy. I've been traveling since the late '90s for work. And the most practical one is I'm a dude with a lot of gadgets, so power management is very important to me.

Putting a power strip in your backpack — you will always have an outlet available to you. And I am not too proud to be at the airport and ask someone, "Hey, do you mind if I take the plug and you can plug into my outlet?" 'Cause back in the day, outlets were hard to come by. Now they're definitely more plentiful, but still, when you go into the hotel room, there's never enough outlets for all your gear. So having that in the bag at all times, you're never sweating.

Elena: Oh my gosh, power strip. That's a great, very unique tip, but I love that. Mine — I might just be the last person to discover this, but I was always creating new packing lists, and now I just have a master packing list in my notes app that I copy and use for each trip. I don't know why it took me 30 years to figure that out, but I finally added it. So I'm sure everyone already does that, but...

Angela: It also took me about 35 years to figure that out. Like, I've had it figured out for a little bit now, but yeah, why are we redoing this every time?

Rob: I have a database. So not only — here would be my thing. Here's my only challenge to your list — you never create a new list because then you're having to manage duplication templates. So you only work off a master template, 'cause as new things come in, you enter it in there, but you just never duplicate it. We might only add onto yours, Elena.

Catherine: Love it.

Elena: Okay, thanks Rob.

Rob: You don't wanna get into version management.

Elena: No.

Angela: You were gonna say you just let Claude manage it for you. Like Claude has the master list and...

Rob: I didn't wanna completely dork out.

Angela: Okay, got it.

Elena: All right, well, Catherine, Nikki, thanks so much for joining us and talking about your trip. That was fun.

Catherine: Thank you.

Nikki: Thank you.

Angela: Thanks for traveling to the other side of the world for us.

Catherine: Yes.

Rob: Someday Cannes, I'm coming for you.

Angela: Rob, we're not sending you to Cannes. You gotta figure out how to say it first.

Rob: Yeah.